Connection problems

[Robin Edwards]

Hello, Paul,

It's Sunday afternoon, about 3pm. I've been trying to download News and
Mail (as one does) . However, for Long periods (10 secs to over a
minutes) the RD and SD lamps have been completely dead. This happens
very often indeed, but by no means always. Occasionally this afternoon
a single or double lamp flickered for a fraction of a second but then
went to sleep. I never touch the software or hardware - afraid to try
it - but this apparent lack of connection keeps on occurring, seemingly
at random times.

Now, after about 7 minutes of virtually lampless modem they have begun
to blink more or less steadily again, and this moment the download has
been completed. 10.41 minutes in all, for 17 emails and 48 News
messages. For over something half the time on line the modem lamps
indicated no data being received.

I feel absolutely sure that this is a problem that is not happening
here. If it were it would happen all the time, but it does not. The
number that is dialled is 08451231621. My modem is a USR Sportster x2
56k, speed 115200, (on loan from Ralph Sillett, by the way).

I don't know how to influence the connection, but I would like it to be
a lot more consistent. Is it possibly a problem with wires from my
place to the exchange? A neighbour, a few yards away, has told me that
the speed he gets on broadband is around 360k, which is pretty low I
understand, and he is hoping to get in touch with the appropriate people
in BT to do some testing. We are about a mile and a half from the
exchange. But if it is a line problem, why should the lack of signals
occur in such a spasmodic fashion?

It is a deep mystery to me.

Do other people using Voyager/Pluto have the same symptoms I wonder?
And what about those who use other software?

I'd be very pleased to know whether I'm unique or not!

Hoping for a solution,

Cheers,

Robin

P.S. Will no doubt see you at the weekend.

[Bill (Adopt)]

Post by Robin Edwards
Hello, Paul,
It's Sunday afternoon, about 3pm. I've been trying to download News and
Mail (as one does) . However, for Long periods (10 secs to over a
minutes) the RD and SD lamps have been completely dead. This happens
very often indeed, but by no means always. Occasionally this afternoon
a single or double lamp flickered for a fraction of a second but then
went to sleep. I never touch the software or hardware - afraid to try
it - but this apparent lack of connection keeps on occurring, seemingly
at random times.
Now, after about 7 minutes of virtually lampless modem they have begun
to blink more or less steadily again, and this moment the download has
been completed. 10.41 minutes in all, for 17 emails and 48 News
messages. For over something half the time on line the modem lamps
indicated no data being received.

Depends if your list of groups has enough caching
at the server level, otherwise your request will have
to be passed back up the line to collect the articles..

There might also be a 'sharing' problem.. lots of
modems all connected at the same time. This may
explain part of the periods of inactivity...

Post by Robin Edwards
I feel absolutely sure that this is a problem that is not happening
here. If it were it would happen all the time, but it does not. The
number that is dialled is 08451231621. My modem is a USR Sportster x2
56k, speed 115200, (on loan from Ralph Sillett, by the way).

Good modem ..however, is it possible to try your
connection at a slightly slower 'speed'?

I can't remember how this is done - but I do know that
a speed of around 32k can sometimes result in a faster
download - basically, the slower speed results in less
errors to correct. This is especially important if
there's a slight loss of quality in your line...

(I actually acquired a slower 19200k USR from either
Paul Beverly or from the Charity Stand at Wakefield
for a whole 1.00gbp - and used this for a while during
one of those periods of sticky logging on etc. It was
slower, but in the end just as fast and much more
reliably so..

Post by Robin Edwards
I don't know how to influence the connection, but I would like it to be
a lot more consistent. Is it possibly a problem with wires from my
place to the exchange? A neighbour, a few yards away, has told me that
the speed he gets on broadband is around 360k, which is pretty low I
understand, and he is hoping to get in touch with the appropriate people
in BT to do some testing. We are about a mile and a half from the
exchange. But if it is a line problem, why should the lack of signals
occur in such a spasmodic fashion?

OK.. not being silly Robin but, if you are using your
machine(s) and the 'net most every day and throughout
the day, then have you considered that it might may
pay you to opt for a broadband connection yourself.

At first it may seem expensive but, for my own purposes,
a broadband connection has saved me money. I spend less
additional subscription p.q. on broadband with it's 'always
on' connection than I ever did servicing the cost of a modem
connection together with the additional cost of servicing
all the 0845 calls - which are never free.

One of the other advantages of broadband - at least from
Orpheus and given that Paul is at the other end to help,
is a permanently 'on' connection that never wavers!

OK ..it did once for a few hours ..and occasioned, as I
think I mentioned at the time, a series of apologies from
increasingly esoteric levels of BT management, every couple
of hours or so throughout the day! It was entirely their
fault.. ;))

'Always on'? Yes, just that; the connection (the router)
is never knowingly switched off - to do so would waste a
lot of time eached time it is powered back on as it would
have to cycle through the same routines as a modem - and
then some - in physically contacting Orpheus and tickling
Paul's Pride into action. A veritable den of Lyons, they
are.. ;))

Post by Robin Edwards
It is a deep mystery to me.
Do other people using Voyager/Pluto have the same symptoms
I wonder?
And what about those who use other software?

I use the same Voyager shell as I did with ArgoNet - but
with slightly adapted internals to take care of the
'always on' connection via the router, which router itself
now handles all the external calls. (The router is a small
computer in it's own right, sitting between you and the
'net, sorting everything out. It is your personal gatekeeper,
your Man Friday, your invisibly attentive 24/7 Jeeves!

The Voyager shell, by the way, merely holds !Newsagent and
!Pluto, along with other minor Voyager apps, which continue
to work as they did before.

Newsagent and Posty, however, are still only a moment away
within the shell - as I believe is the 'switching' to use
modem calls, if ever needed for fax or something of that
nature.

However, I'm not sure if I would need a fax facility now,
as most tend these days to use email; broadband connections
are just so much faster. Megabytes in seconds, rather than
k in minutes...

I guess if my broadband connection ever collapsed, then I'd
just sit and cry until Paul happens along with a fix... ;))

Setting up things like Newsagent and Pluto aren't in the
least difficult ..just a methodical approach. The router,
(thing that you use to connect your dsl line to one or more
of your machines), is easy enough - if only because Paul is
at the other end and will guide you through the lot ..it's
just a simple bit of button pressing, basically.

Once set, there'll be no further need to interfere with your
settings - all downloads will be not only v.fast, but will
also be immediate, accurate and unfailingly consistent...

A whole new world will open up. It's a bit like

Post by Robin Edwards
I'd be very pleased to know whether I'm unique or not!

No .shouldn't imagine so for one moment. Unless you are
merely being phased out by BT as part of their whole
planned infrastructure of GB connections to the 'net.

Post by Robin Edwards
Hoping for a solution,

..fingers crossed - and enjoy the weekend!

:))

Bill ZFC

[Russell Hafter News]

Post by Bill (Adopt)
However, I'm not sure if I would need a fax facility now,
as most tend these days to use email; broadband
connections are just so much faster. Megabytes in
seconds, rather than k in minutes...

I do not use a fax as much as I used to, but there are
situations where it is still essential.

1) There are jurisdictions where e-mail documents have no
legal force, but faxed ones do. This will no doubt change,
but at present one sticks with fax. And I am talking about
EU countries here.

2) There are situations where the receipient *requires* a
signature on the document. To them this means a fax (even if
the signature is in fact scanned in to the document. They
cannot tell that!)

3) It is often much simpler and quicker to complete a
printed form with pen and ink and put the finished document
on a fax, rather than doing it on a computer.

4) I feel that a fax carries more weight these days. Many
people get hundreds of e-mails and they easily get missed or
even deleted by accident. (I had a phone call from a
solicitor just last week who had deleted an e-mail from me
on receipt, asking would I please send it again.)

5) I expect I can think of others in a minute
:-)

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Russell Hafter News
4) I feel that a fax carries more weight these days. Many
people get hundreds of e-mails and they easily get missed or
even deleted by accident. (I had a phone call from a
solicitor just last week who had deleted an e-mail from me
on receipt, asking would I please send it again.)

Yes. I have this idea that the fax machine is commonly sited in the MD's
outer office as befits its once status whereas e-mails are dealt with by
the typing pool...

[Russell Hafter News]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Russell Hafter News
4) I feel that a fax carries more weight these days.
Many people get hundreds of e-mails and they easily get
missed or even deleted by accident. (I had a phone call
from a solicitor just last week who had deleted an
e-mail from me on receipt, asking would I please send
it again.)

Yes. I have this idea that the fax machine is commonly
sited in the MD's outer office as befits its once status
whereas e-mails are dealt with by the typing pool...

Not really, a lot of the offices I deal with are just two or
three people in the one office.

There is one such for whom I have the number of the fax in
the actual office, while the only e-mail address they give
out is the generic one for the town hall a mile away.

[Bill (Adopt)]

[..]

Post by Russell Hafter News
4) I feel that a fax carries more weight these days. Many
people get hundreds of e-mails and they easily get missed or
even deleted by accident. (I had a phone call from a
solicitor just last week who had deleted an e-mail from me
on receipt, asking would I please send it again.)
5) I expect I can think of others in a minute
:-)

Being you, Russell, I daresay you can.. !;))

As far as I know, my RiscPC connection via ArcFax
still works. At least it does for 'out' from my
machine ..but I don't think I've ever received a
fax, however, that hasn't been intercepted and
stored/printed by my Philips fax/answer machine.

So, to clear your long list, I still have a
'proper' fax installed which I may use if ever
or whenever such is required.

To your point '(4)' ..the last time I tried to
send a confirmatory fax to John Lewis Plc, I was
completely stalled by their fax machines ..they
apparently had - and for some while - been inundated
by a form of 'fax spam' which had completely
corrupted their throughput. This was more or less
on a permanent basis.

They advised using email to transmit my confirmation,
or order, or whatever it was ..as email is nowadays
a legal document.

Other than that, for the more secure transaction,
they suggested that I contact them via their secure
website server/addresses.

As it was, I merely popped into the city - much
easier and, these days with a bus pass, with a
free coffee and slice of walnut cake, compliments
of the house.. O:))

I took their point - as indeed I can understand the
cases where you might still need to use the older-
fashioned, steam-driven, rude cartoon transmitting
fax device.. I'll bet you even use the Euro as well!

!;)))

Bill ZFC

[Russell Hafter News]

Post by Bill (Adopt)
Being you, Russell, I daresay you can.. !;))

See other post about today's postbag

Post by Bill (Adopt)
As far as I know, my RiscPC connection via ArcFax
still works.

Mine certainly does, though occasionally the receiving
machine does not like my modem.

Post by Bill (Adopt)
At least it does for 'out' from my machine ..but I
don't think I've ever received a fax,

No, they are received by the fax machine, on paper.

[Snip]

Post by Bill (Adopt)
I took their point - as indeed I can understand the
cases where you might still need to use the older-
fashioned, steam-driven, rude cartoon transmitting
fax device.. I'll bet you even use the Euro as well!

Of course. Five Euro bank accounts in three countries.

One day we shall have here too, I hope.

[Russell Hafter News]

Post by Russell Hafter News
5) I expect I can think of others in a minute

Two letters in today's postbag, specifically requesting that
I fill in the form on the back and *fax* it back.

[Russell Hafter News]

Post by Russell Hafter News

Post by Russell Hafter News
5) I expect I can think of others in a minute

Two letters in today's postbag, specifically requesting
that I fill in the form on the back and *fax* it back.

And yesterday, an e-mail with a PDF attachment. "Please
print out the attached PDF, complete and fax back to us".

[Bill (Adopt)]

Post by Russell Hafter News

Post by Russell Hafter News

Post by Russell Hafter News
5) I expect I can think of others in a minute

Two letters in today's postbag, specifically requesting
that I fill in the form on the back and *fax* it back.

And yesterday, an e-mail with a PDF attachment. "Please
print out the attached PDF, complete and fax back to us".

Well ..if you will deal with villagers living in far flung
places ..or continue to assist time-travellers from the Dark
Ages... ;'))

Bill ZFC

[Russell Hafter News]

Post by Bill (Adopt)

Post by Russell Hafter News
And yesterday, an e-mail with a PDF attachment. "Please
print out the attached PDF, complete and fax back to
us".

Well ..if you will deal with villagers living in far
flung places ..or continue to assist time-travellers
from the Dark Ages... ;'))

It came from Munich, the German office of a Europe-wide
Hotel Association!

Actually, I have not got round to actually reading the PDF,
since I know that the answer is "sorry, but I am unable to
attend".

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Bill (Adopt)
Newsagent and Posty, however, are still only a moment away
within the shell - as I believe is the 'switching' to use
modem calls, if ever needed for fax or something of that
nature.

I still use the Voyager shell because I'm used to it, but have no dial-up
connection configured or even possible as I'm with Pipex and don't know
how to alter Voyager's code, etc.

But ArcFax still works ok via the old modem - so is it relying on anything
from Voyager?

[Bill (Adopt)]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Bill (Adopt)
Newsagent and Posty, however, are still only a moment away
within the shell - as I believe is the 'switching' to use
modem calls, if ever needed for fax or something of that
nature.

I still use the Voyager shell because I'm used to it, but have no dial-up
connection configured or even possible as I'm with Pipex and don't know
how to alter Voyager's code, etc.

See below.. ;))

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
But ArcFax still works ok via the old modem - so is it relying on anything
from Voyager?

Yes, thinking about it I rather believe it does, Dave.. :))

As far as I know, the modem will still work via the serial port
as normal - ie the serial connection and drivers for the USR
modem are still fully active. ArcFax still uses these,
(although it's possible that Paul hasn't re-engaged the 0845
'phone contact number for my logon call-sign, following the
switch-over to dsl).

The dsl router, (which is the usual four-port so that a number
of machines et al may be connected with it, the 'net and each
other), works through the one of the USB connections provided
by one of STD's UniPod cards. This does not involve the use
of the serial port. (Should say, by the way, that the base
machine is an SA/RISC OS 4.02 - which remains, as it has done
since 04 December 1994, perfectly stable and well up to par
for nearly all 'net connections - except M$oft's javascript
and certain biz-wow-bang flash graphics - which are more a
minor problem of Fresco and Netsurf)...

The difference in the internal bits of Voyager come mainly in
the configuration of Newsagent and Posty - or in my case, that
of Newshound and Pluto, which are now directed to the router
rather than to the serial port...

Do they still work - so far as I know, they do ..or are easily
switchable back to do so. Nothing in Voyager has been lost,
merely other routes enabled from the machine directly to and
through the router..

Give me a little while and I might begin to remember what I
did - although it was nothing more than the simple destructions
from Paul that he's now placed on the Orpheus website.

hope helps..?? :))

Bill ZFC

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Bill (Adopt)

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
But ArcFax still works ok via the old modem - so is it relying on
anything from Voyager?

Yes, thinking about it I rather believe it does, Dave.. :))
As far as I know, the modem will still work via the serial port
as normal - ie the serial connection and drivers for the USR
modem are still fully active.

But ArcFax supplies its own driver?

Post by Bill (Adopt)
ArcFax still uses these,
(although it's possible that Paul hasn't re-engaged the 0845
'phone contact number for my logon call-sign, following the
switch-over to dsl).

I'm not sure what an 0845 number has to do with it - ArcFax dials the
required number directly.

I've just had a quick read of the ArcFax manual and it suggests it
supplies all the software needed to use a modem via the serial port.

[Bill (Adopt)]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Bill (Adopt)

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
But ArcFax still works ok via the old modem - so is it relying on
anything from Voyager?

Yes, thinking about it I rather believe it does, Dave.. :))
As far as I know, the modem will still work via the serial port
as normal - ie the serial connection and drivers for the USR
modem are still fully active.

But ArcFax supplies its own driver?

Post by Bill (Adopt)
ArcFax still uses these,
(although it's possible that Paul hasn't re-engaged the 0845
'phone contact number for my logon call-sign, following the
switch-over to dsl).

I'm not sure what an 0845 number has to do with it - ArcFax dials the
required number directly.
I've just had a quick read of the ArcFax manual and it suggests it
supplies all the software needed to use a modem via the serial port.

OK.. Thank you. :))

I'm not too sure what your reply implies though, Dave?

It's not really a point of whether or not ArcFax has it's
own drivers - I thought I was more considering, or perhaps
just musing, a point of how your PIPEX connection works
via broadband (and with Voyager)...

I hesitate to add anything to my earlier answer in case
I've grabbed completely the wrong end of the stick - but
were you not concerned that your Voyager app would stop
working in a proposed move away from PIPEX??

Assuming so, (and not being a techie engineer - Paul is
that).. ;))

..then, so far as I know, your Voyager connection has
nothing to do with your broadband PIPEX connection. That
goes out, via your !Boot files network connections and your
router to the wider 'net...

As I understand it, if you are using Newsagent or Posty
within Voyager then you may need to adapt their files
to push out through your !Boot (network) rather than
through the serial port and modem. Whatever, the files
and the information is up on the Orpheus site and, so
far as I know, easily accessible.

Paul also has, on one of his own sites, (url escapes me
at the mo, but is easily found), one of the best sets of
instructions for broadband connections and problem solving.

To repeat, although I appreciate there's no real need, I
use Newsagent and Pluto tucked into Voyager's VIX area so
that they appear on the Voyager icon bar. However, they
both connect directly to the router via !Boot network filing,
not through anything Voyager.

Although linking the dsl line directly to Orpheus, the
connection would still be the same if to PIPEX, BT, TalkTalk
or any other broadband provider.. Voyager itself is not
really all that important - except as a shell and a continuing
route out to the serial port and modem, which will still
connect to Orpheus exactly as Robin's prior modem connection
still does.

Is these additionals of any help..? :))

Bill ZFC

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Bill (Adopt)

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Bill (Adopt)

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
But ArcFax still works ok via the old modem - so is it relying on
anything from Voyager?

Yes, thinking about it I rather believe it does, Dave.. :))
As far as I know, the modem will still work via the serial port
as normal - ie the serial connection and drivers for the USR
modem are still fully active.

But ArcFax supplies its own driver?

Post by Bill (Adopt)
ArcFax still uses these,
(although it's possible that Paul hasn't re-engaged the 0845
'phone contact number for my logon call-sign, following the
switch-over to dsl).

I'm not sure what an 0845 number has to do with it - ArcFax dials the
required number directly.
I've just had a quick read of the ArcFax manual and it suggests it
supplies all the software needed to use a modem via the serial port.

OK.. Thank you. :))
I'm not too sure what your reply implies though, Dave?

You implied parts of Voyager were still needed even if not actually using
it.

Post by Bill (Adopt)
It's not really a point of whether or not ArcFax has it's
own drivers - I thought I was more considering, or perhaps
just musing, a point of how your PIPEX connection works
via broadband (and with Voyager)...

Ah. My query was not about that but about using dialup as with ArcFax. I
realise you need Voyager or alternatives for a dialup connection even
although you have a working broadband one as I discovered when my ISDN
connection failed and Pipex offered a free dialup service until it was
fixed.

Post by Bill (Adopt)
I hesitate to add anything to my earlier answer in case
I've grabbed completely the wrong end of the stick - but
were you not concerned that your Voyager app would stop
working in a proposed move away from PIPEX??

Not really. I configured the Pipex connection and realise no alteration to
Voyager was needed.

[snip]

[Bill (Adopt)]

[..]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Bill (Adopt)

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
I've just had a quick read of the ArcFax manual and it suggests it
supplies all the software needed to use a modem via the serial port.

OK.. Thank you. :))
I'm not too sure what your reply implies though, Dave?

You implied parts of Voyager were still needed even if not actually using
it.

Meaning ArcFax? Yes, correct - I didn't identify that
it has all it's own drivers and should have remembered
so.. :((

..and the bit about the fax 'phone numbers which I din't
think about ..well, it's been so long since I needed to
use the thing ..ooops! ;}}

I think I might have been confusing my reply with the
thoughts wallowing about my head re Newsagent, Posty
and the separates of Newshound and Pluto and the way
they all each connect..

My apologies for the confusion...

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Bill (Adopt)
It's not really a point of whether or not ArcFax has it's
own drivers - I thought I was more considering, or perhaps
just musing, a point of how your PIPEX connection works
via broadband (and with Voyager)...

Ah. My query was not about that but about using dialup as with ArcFax. I
realise you need Voyager or alternatives for a dialup connection even
although you have a working broadband one as I discovered when my ISDN
connection failed and Pipex offered a free dialup service until it was
fixed.

Post by Bill (Adopt)
I hesitate to add anything to my earlier answer in case
I've grabbed completely the wrong end of the stick - but
were you not concerned that your Voyager app would stop
working in a proposed move away from PIPEX??

Not really. I configured the Pipex connection and realise no
alteration to Voyager was needed.

Right! ..as I similarly discovered when installing the
bits for Orpheus. My comment must have been a little
super-numary, then.. !:()

..and I guess your question (in csa and which I managed
to bypass), has now been answered.. ?:))

Bill ZFC

[Robin Edwards]

Thanks to Bill (and others) for enlightening information and what look
like sound suggestions. I shall try at least some of them :-)

In fact, I have in the last few days been trying broadband, but it is
not yet certain that I'll continue with this provider. Depends on how
things go over the next 3 weeks.

But dial up will be used until mid summer at least. I doubt if there's
any significant traffic on the groups I contact - all are technical
(RISC OS, statistical and ZFC) so there's unlikely to be any congestion.

The slower speed on the modem might be worth a go I suppose, but it
seems a bit counter-intuitive to me.

A chat or email conversation with BT might be a good idea. The
neighbour who is unhappy with his connection speed happens to be a
computer/communications professional, but is a bit too busy with his job
and a huge house extension to have much time to get active with BT. I
might have to do it! Having written that, I found this afternoon that
speedtest.bt.com showed up with 1.804 mbps instead of 384 kbps. This
test was the successful one from about 30 tries, I suppose. Most of the
others would not connect at all, so this is clearly an maximum value on
our 2 mbps telephone line to the exchange.

Interesting that the Voyage "shell" works with BB. I may need a bit of
help with that some day.

By the way, weekends are just like any other days for me, and have been
since mid 1984. A man of leisure, that's what I am ;-) But next week
end will be different of course. Hope to see you all at my Stand at The
Webbington.

Thanks again,

Robin

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Robin Edwards
But dial up will be used until mid summer at least. I doubt if there's
any significant traffic on the groups I contact - all are technical
(RISC OS, statistical and ZFC) so there's unlikely to be any congestion.

It's not really the groups that you subscribe to but the 'usenet' or
whatever system. When I was on dialup I was constantly getting downloads
going to a crawl or zero. Now on broadband, but still using Pipex news,
they do vary a bit in speed but never go so slowly.

[Tennant Stuart]

Post by Robin Edwards
I've been trying to download News and
Mail (as one does) . However, for Long periods (10 secs to over a
minutes) the RD and SD lamps have been completely dead. This happens
very often indeed, but by no means always. Occasionally this afternoon
a single or double lamp flickered for a fraction of a second but then
went to sleep. I never touch the software or hardware - afraid to try
it - but this apparent lack of connection keeps on occurring, seemingly
at random times.
Now, after about 7 minutes of virtually lampless modem they have begun
to blink more or less steadily again, and this moment the download has
been completed. 10.41 minutes in all, for 17 emails and 48 News
messages. For over something half the time on line the modem lamps
indicated no data being received.

I've seen the lamps 'sleeping' (not dead); I also have a speedometer on
my Voyager button bar, and that can fall to 0/0 (for send/receive).

However, this doesn't mean the connection has dropped, for two reasons.

Firstly: on a rare occasion when it did drop, the modem immediately told
Voyager which told me; and this happened as reception was going quickly.

Secondly: if you try a bit of surfing, everything bursts into life; try
accessing a forum to which you add a reply, to see two-way traffic.

Post by Robin Edwards
I don't know how to influence the connection, but I would like it to be
a lot more consistent. Is it possibly a problem with wires from my
place to the exchange? A neighbour, a few yards away, has told me that
the speed he gets on broadband is around 360k, which is pretty low I
understand, and he is hoping to get in touch with the appropriate people
in BT to do some testing. We are about a mile and a half from the
exchange. But if it is a line problem, why should the lack of signals
occur in such a spasmodic fashion?

Way back in the old Argonet days, even before they were taken over by
that big backbone company whose name I've forgotten, I did have a wiring
problem. BT said it was nothing to do with the exchange, so they sent a
man out who shinnied up poles and spelunkered into holes and still there
was nothing faulty. We had already determined all was okay in my house.

Then he looked at the last millimetre before the line came indoors, and
found the old wiring had completely corroded away months before - yet in
all that time, normal phone calls worked (this is before "voicemail" was
invented), and Voyager sometimes ran fast, or slow, but never failed.

The engineer reckoned the signal carried on through the rainwater...


Tennant

[Bill (Adopt)]

[..]

Post by Tennant Stuart
Then he looked at the last millimetre before the line came indoors, and
found the old wiring had completely corroded away months before - yet in
all that time, normal phone calls worked (this is before "voicemail" was
invented), and Voyager sometimes ran fast, or slow, but never failed.
The engineer reckoned the signal carried on through the rainwater...

You might be surprised, as I understand it, at the number
of TVs that still get a decent picture through this type
of 'rainwater' aerial cabling... ;))

You are correct, of course. It's always worth checking
that connections near to hand are actually secure and
not immediately jump to the assumption that the problem
is further afield.

Bill ZFC

[Tennant Stuart]

Post by Bill (Adopt)

Post by Tennant Stuart
Then he looked at the last millimetre before the line came indoors, and
found the old wiring had completely corroded away months before - yet in
all that time, normal phone calls worked (this is before "voicemail" was
invented), and Voyager sometimes ran fast, or slow, but never failed.
The engineer reckoned the signal carried on through the rainwater...

You might be surprised, as I understand it, at the number
of TVs that still get a decent picture through this type
of 'rainwater' aerial cabling... ;))

Lol, I thought our TV signal was fine until we got Freeview, and the
digibox couldn't find one of the multiplexes. It turned out the aerial
was quite okay, but it wasn't joined to the TV set by the cabling!

Post by Bill (Adopt)
You are correct, of course. It's always worth checking
that connections near to hand are actually secure and
not immediately jump to the assumption that the problem
is further afield.

Absolutely!


Tennant

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Tennant Stuart
Lol, I thought our TV signal was fine until we got Freeview, and the
digibox couldn't find one of the multiplexes. It turned out the aerial
was quite okay, but it wasn't joined to the TV set by the cabling!

I never cease to be amazed by what some consider to be an ok signal...;-)

[Paul Vigay]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
I never cease to be amazed by what some consider to be an ok signal...;-)

The thing that puzzles me is when you go into a local TV shop such as
Currys or even one of the independent dealers and examine some of their
'high quality' TV sets, it looks like they share 100 sets from one aerial
or something.

Who cares about features and physical looks when the picture is awful. I'd
be put off buying something that has picture quality as bad as some local
dealers show off the sets with. Yet, they never seem to care about showing
off this, most important, feature.

[Russell Hafter News]

In article

Post by Paul Vigay

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
I never cease to be amazed by what some consider to be
an ok signal...;-)

The thing that puzzles me is when you go into a local TV
shop such as Currys or even one of the independent
dealers and examine some of their 'high quality' TV sets,
it looks like they share 100 sets from one aerial or
something.
Who cares about features and physical looks when the
picture is awful. I'd be put off buying something that
has picture quality as bad as some local dealers show off
the sets with. Yet, they never seem to care about showing
off this, most important, feature.

There was a piece on Radio 4 just last week, I think, on
just this matter.

A lot of research (not, apparently by TV hardware
manufacturers) has been done on what people actually
appreciate.

Most people choose a large, poor quality picture over a
small, high quality one.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Russell Hafter News
A lot of research (not, apparently by TV hardware
manufacturers) has been done on what people actually
appreciate.
Most people choose a large, poor quality picture over a
small, high quality one.

Yes. The other noticeable thing is that with widescreen sets - no matter
what the size - most prefer a 4:3 picture 'expanded' to fill the frame
regardless of what it does to the geometry or picture content.

Basically, most just seem to want moving coloured wallpaper...

[Ben Crick]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Yes. The other noticeable thing is that with widescreen sets - no matter
what the size - most prefer a 4:3 picture 'expanded' to fill the frame
regardless of what it does to the geometry or picture content.

Yes, the "letter-box" effect. With SKY TV, most pictures seem to
be 4:3 and fit well on my old analogue TV used as a monitor screen.

Living in farthest NE Kent, I often find that the BBC TV weather
forecast chart automatically chops off east Kent and half of East
Anglia. Very annoying! I must save up my pennies and get a 13:6
or whatever the "official" aspect ratio now is...

Ben

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Ben Crick

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Yes. The other noticeable thing is that with widescreen sets - no
matter what the size - most prefer a 4:3 picture 'expanded' to fill
the frame regardless of what it does to the geometry or picture
content.

Yes, the "letter-box" effect. With SKY TV, most pictures seem to
be 4:3 and fit well on my old analogue TV used as a monitor screen.
Living in farthest NE Kent, I often find that the BBC TV weather
forecast chart automatically chops off east Kent and half of East
Anglia. Very annoying! I must save up my pennies and get a 13:6
or whatever the "official" aspect ratio now is...

The weather chart shouldn't be chopped off. It will be originated in 16:9,
but allowance will be made for those watching off analogue where you get a
cropped 13:9 version.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Paul Vigay

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
I never cease to be amazed by what some consider to be an ok
signal...;-)

The thing that puzzles me is when you go into a local TV shop such as
Currys or even one of the independent dealers and examine some of their
'high quality' TV sets, it looks like they share 100 sets from one aerial
or something.

They do - there will be only the one aerial for the shop. However it is
just about possible to install a decent distribution system. And with
FreeView, it should either work or not, rather than the horrid grainy
multiple image stuff you so often see.

Post by Paul Vigay
Who cares about features and physical looks when the picture is awful.
I'd be put off buying something that has picture quality as bad as some
local dealers show off the sets with. Yet, they never seem to care about
showing off this, most important, feature.

Absolutely - choosing a set on the basis of what it looks like in the
store is risky.

[Tennant Stuart]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Tennant Stuart
Lol, I thought our TV signal was fine until we got Freeview, and the
digibox couldn't find one of the multiplexes. It turned out the aerial
was quite okay, but it wasn't joined to the TV set by the cabling!

I never cease to be amazed by what some consider to be an ok signal...;-)

It was real good quality, only the digibox could tell the difference.

A friend was pissed off as he's spent thousands, and his was worse.


Tennant

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Tennant Stuart

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Tennant Stuart
Lol, I thought our TV signal was fine until we got Freeview, and the
digibox couldn't find one of the multiplexes. It turned out the aerial
was quite okay, but it wasn't joined to the TV set by the cabling!

I never cease to be amazed by what some consider to be an ok
signal...;-)

It was real good quality, only the digibox could tell the difference.

If your signal is so strong you get a perfect analogue picture with no
aerial connected then the same will apply to digital. However, despite
being able to see the Crystal Palace TX mast out of this window - some 4
miles away - I don't get a perfect analogue picture with no aerial. But I
do get a perfect digital picture on the computer tuner with a bit of wet
string. ;-)

Post by Tennant Stuart
A friend was pissed off as he's spent thousands, and his was worse.

It doesn't cost thousands for a decent aerial.

Post by Tennant Stuart
Tennant

[Colin Matthews]

However, despite being able to see the Crystal Palace TX mast out
of this window - some 4 miles away - I don't get a perfect analogue
picture with no aerial.

When many years ago I used to live virtually under the same mast I
used to get good reception out of my reel to reel tape recorder.

[Tennant Stuart]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Tennant Stuart

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Tennant Stuart
Lol, I thought our TV signal was fine until we got Freeview, and the
digibox couldn't find one of the multiplexes. It turned out the
aerial was quite okay, but it wasn't joined to the TV set by the
cabling!

I never cease to be amazed by what some consider to be an ok
signal...;-)

It was real good quality, only the digibox could tell the difference.

If your signal is so strong you get a perfect analogue picture with no
aerial connected then the same will apply to digital.

Not with the one multiplex, which the digibox says has low power.

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
However, despite being able to see the Crystal Palace TX mast out of
this window - some 4 miles away - I don't get a perfect analogue picture
with no aerial. But I do get a perfect digital picture on the computer
tuner with a bit of wet string. ;-)

We're about 20 miles from Sutton Coldfield, and get a watchable analogue
picture with the aerial lead unplugged; as long as your wife stands at the
back of the set, or there's a fresh bowl of petunias on the windowsill.

With the lead plugged in, it's superb - and we get a watchable analogue
picture from the Wrekin transmitter, despite having the wrong type of
aerial pointing in the wrong direction. A friend who lives in a valley
that needs the Wrekin gets a fair picture only on BBC-2 and Five.

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Tennant Stuart
A friend was pissed off as he's spent thousands, and his was worse.

It doesn't cost thousands for a decent aerial.

His £4000 36" plasma has a crap picture compared to our £400 32" LCD.


Tennant